Background to this
post:
On their blog Mark
Dever, Ligon
Duncan and Al
Mohler advance the position that an egalitarian (as opposed to
complementarian) view of women in leadership in the church is not merely an
area where orthodox believers of good will can reasonably disagree, but rather
the egalitarian view “is effectively an undermining of -- a breach in -- the
authority of Scripture.” A discussion on CGO over Mark Dever’s post appears
here. Ligon Duncan then lent his support to Mark Dever’s position,
based on four main arguments. Al Mohler soon followed, affirming the
observations and conclusions. CJ Mahaney’s post has now moved on to “application.”
------------
Recognizing I am far out of my league in terms of theological education or
pastoral experience, I want to try and untangle and then understand the
arguments these men have advanced.
I hold each of these men in high regard; yet I am uneasy with their heart-felt
conviction on this issue -- not the conviction that the complimentarian view is
correct, but that anything else amounts
to a rejection of the authority of Scripture.
I am uneasy because, as we remain in conversation with the
world our God desires to redeem, we live in the middle -- called to bear the
Good News, but also needing it ourselves. Therefore sometimes our sincere
convictions are spot on and backed by the broad testimony of Scripture (Jesus
is the Messiah), and other times they are a product of our historical
locatedness, blind spots or sin (solar system theory as in conflict with
Scripture; slavery / racial superiority as part of God’s ordering). It is
only through conversation, testing and the continual refinement of God’s Word
on us by his Spirit that we discern which is which. To cut off this
conversation --especially between those who share many of the same convictions
regarding the authority of Scripture -- is a step not to be taken
lightly.
For such an important step, it is unsettling to me is that it is so motivated
by observations about culture and trends among younger theologians --
observations that may be true of those the authors know but that may not be
accurate of the wider culture. These are (as Mohler describes), that (1) “younger,
seriously-minded-pastors” are comfortable staking “counter-cultural” positions
and that (2) “they have heard and read all the (aging) arguments on behalf of
egalitarianism, and they grow frustrated with what they (correctly) see as a
pattern of exegetical and theological corner-cutting. They are convinced
that complementarianism is the winning argument.” Without delving into
numerous weaknesses here, it requires a tremendous leap to go from observing a
subset of the younger generation has adopted one’s position with conviction to claiming there is no longer need for
dialogue.
I need to say at the outset that I am still in flux on where I come down on the
underlying issue, and I believe there are persuasive arguments on both
sides. However the arguments advanced by Mohler, Dever and Duncan fall
far short of establishing their conclusion that conversation must end and the
very authority of Scripture is at stake. Aside from the above
observation, Ligon Duncan’s argument -- the topic of this post -- makes four
points, each of which I will try to address briefly.
First, Duncan argues that “[t]he denial of complementarianism undermines the
church’s practical embrace of the authority of scripture” based on the “gymnastics”
necessary to permit women to teach or exercise authority in the church in view
of Paul’s explicit statement in 1 Timothy to the contrary. Essentially,
the passage is so obvious that only “gymnastics” can get around its forceful
application, and if we can use gymnastics to get around this straightforward
teaching, we can use gymnastics to get around other much less clear teachings
of scripture too, leaving it without authority.
The chief flaw in this argument is that it assumes the
conclusion (Paul is obviously saying ‘x’) and then questions the motives and
integrity of the critics (whose interpretive efforts are merely “gymnastics”).
The critique may have been fair of a prior generation, using questionable
hermeneutics to get around the passage (e.g., “Paul was just wrong, and we now
know better”). But many contemporary orthodox scholars have brought to
bear the same interpretive skills used to understand other texts to the handful
of passages in Paul, and have come to different conclusions.
This is entirely fair -- yes, sometimes we want to dodge the
teaching of a hard passage, but sometimes our “obvious” understanding of a
passage is taken out of context and just not what the author was getting to at
all. Indeed, the question of whether this passage really is so obvious is
invited by Scripture itself (e.g., how do we reconcile this with Paul’s plain
statement that Phoebe was a “diakonos”
in Romans 16?) There are ways to work through this tension -- on both the
complementarian and egalitarian side -- while keeping faith with the
text. The chief question is what the passage means -- what did Paul
intend to communicate here -- and to understand that takes work.
Duncan then notes in passing that
there are not many who disagree with this position (complementarianism) and
also believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. In short, this statement simply is not true. J.I. Packer,
John Stott, Gordon Fee, many of the faculty of Gordon-Conwell, and many others
have staked out various positions which -- especially on the issue of women in
leadership in church -- at least create
space for (if not endorsing) an egalitarian view. (The response is, “these
do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture” -- but then you are left with a
very small group and the argument becomes much smaller and less
persuasive).
Second, Duncan argues the clarity
of Scripture is undermined by egalitarian arguments, because “if you can get
egalitarianism from the Bible, you can get anything from the Bible.” This
slippery slope argument again dismisses out of hand the interpretations of
orthodox Bible scholars who -- applying the same interpretive techniques
complementarians use themselves to understand other passages -- happen to
disagree with Duncan on this
issue. Further, it elevates clarity above intended meaning. As
noted, a passage can appear clear on its face, and that interpretation can be
clearly wrong because we are reading it through our ignorance, biases,
assumptions and cultural locatedness. Indeed, in the same passage Paul
writes, “She will be saved by childbearing—if they continue in faith and love
and holiness, with self-control.” (1 Ti 2:15). The clear meaning appears that women, to be saved, must have children. My hunch is that Duncan would say that here – in the very next
verse -- we must let Scripture interpret Scripture (the same “gymnastics”
he has just condemned in others for evading the clear meaning).
One further example. James 2:24: “a person is justified by works
and not faith alone.” The plain meaning
of this passage seems troublesome to a position of justification by grace alone
through faith alone, not by works. To “evade”
such a reading, are “gymnastics” (interpreting Scripture in light of Scripture)
permissible? Of course. But then, how can Duncan condemn as undermining the authority of Scripture egalitarians for using the
same hermeneutical methods he engages in himself (perhaps unaware) (e.g.,
egalitarians reading 1 Timothy 2:12-14
in light of Galatians 3:28, etc.). Does this mean if you can get women saved by
something other than having children, you can get anything from the Bible?
Third, Duncan posits the
egalitarian position is rooted in the Enlightenment, not the Bible, and is also
a position that parallels those advocated by paganism. This deconstructs
the “true motives” of those who disagree with Duncan (motives other than understanding what Paul is actually saying here). It
is plausible, but it is also a dangerous weapon that, once unsheathed, can
equally be turned on the user (e.g., complementarianism is rooted in a foreign
strand of patriarchial and prejudiced thought mapped onto the Bible that
undermines the actual meaning of the text and, as such, has done great
harm). This also invites guilt by association (do you know who else
supports egalitarianism? pagans!) -- which could again be turned as
well (do you know who else supports complementarianism? Men who beat
their wives!) This is an entirely unfair critique of either
position. Indeed, Christians share a concern for the environment with
pagans, a concern for justice with Muslims and a desire for joy with
hedonists. It is not surprising that some overlap of positions may exist.
Finally, Duncan asserts that
egalitarianism denies the biblical distinctions of maleness and femaleness, and
when this is denied Christian discipleship is seriously damaged. This is,
simply put, not what this conversation has been about. Gender distinctions
in the Bible do not stand or fall on what Paul meant in 1 Timothy regarding
women in leadership in the church, any more than they are obliterated by what
Paul wrote in Galatians (neither “male nor female”). Such a description
of the egalitarian position on the issue of women in leadership in the church
is an unfair mischaracterization. 1 Timothy -- under any understanding --
must still be read in view of the full counsel of Scripture.
At bottom, while Duncan may (or may
not) be correct on complementarianism, I do not believe his arguments advance
the position that the authority of Scripture is at stake here with much
success. I believe the conversation can -- and must -- continue. This is especially so in view of our command
to charity and to humility in Christ.
© 2006, Paul Yanosy.
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Paul, Thanks for your post.
Thu, 06/15/2006 - 16:11 — J-ho (not verified)Paul,
Thanks for your post. It seemed humble and generous. I'm in full support of your questions about how an egalitarian stance undermines the authority of scripture. I just don't get their position. Now you got me all worked up and I'll have to read their posts over and over again.
J
Forgive my ignorance here,
Fri, 06/16/2006 - 14:46 — Jeff Price (not verified)Forgive my ignorance here, but could you point out specifically which "orthodox Bible scholars" you are referring to and perhaps which bodies of work they revealed these positions?
"This slippery slope argument again dismisses out of hand the interpretations of orthodox Bible scholars..."
As a complementarian I struggle to understand the scriptural basis for the egalitarian position and would appreciate any illumination these "orthodox Bible scholars" could provide. An interesting topic indeed!
Jeff, No worries on your
Fri, 06/16/2006 - 16:39 — Paul (not verified)Jeff,
No worries on your ignorance, and I hope you will forgive mine too. I am certainly not an expert on the underlying dispute (and do not want to hold myself out to be). As I said, I am in flux on the underlying issue and I think there are compelling arguments on both sides. Widely respected orthodox Biblical scholars who have publicly differed from the complementarian reading of 1 Timothy include John Stott (commentary on 1 Timothy (IVP)), Roger Nicole (RTS-Orlando), F.F. Bruce, Cornelius Plantiga, Gordon Fee (First Epistle to the Corinthians (NICNT), 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus (New International Biblical Commentary)), Catherine Clark Kroeger (Gordon-Conwell), John Stackhouse, Timothy George, John Armstrong, as well as N.T. Wright. Others may have recommended reading (on both sides of the underlying issue). On the complementarian side, I know D.A. Carson, John Piper and Wayne Grudem have written persuasively. On the egalitarian side, a few books I have had recommended to me as scholarly and orthodox are: Linda Belleville, "Women Leaders and the Church: 3 Crucial Questions", Craig S. Keener "Paul, Women and Wives: Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul" and Pierce et al., eds. "Discoverying Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy". I hope this is helpful. It is definitely an interesting topic, one I think that can be handled in a way that makes us all proud.
Best,
Paul
I recognize this is a late
Tue, 06/20/2006 - 16:32 — Davy (not verified)I recognize this is a late post to an older column, but having just recently read it; I still wanted to comment.
"My hunch is that Duncan would say that here – in the very next verse -- we must let Scripture interpret Scripture (the same “gymnastics” he has just condemned in others for evading the clear meaning)."
How is it the same "gymnastics" when the next verse (I Tim. 2:13) only strengthens the previous verse? Complentarianism seems not to be culturally conditioned if it was a pre-fall design.
Scripture does interpret scripture. It seems that Paul is speaking much more specifically and definitively in Timothy (and in reference to the rest of Scripture mentioning Adam and Eve) instead of a casual reference to Phoebe as a deaconess in a narrative.
Just a few questions and thoughts...
Davy, I can't speak for Paul
Tue, 06/20/2006 - 16:54 — Glenn (not verified)Davy,
I can't speak for Paul and I hope he will reply as well.
I did see an earlier draft of Paul's article, and I dimly recall that there was a mention of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 as passage. I suspect when that reference, along with many other phrases and sentences, received the delete key, it escaped notice to change the phrase, "the very next verse."
Does that make sense? I think it was probably an editing mistake.
His point, I believe, is that Duncan probably does not take 1 Tim 2:15 at face value. He and Dever remark that "I do not permit a woman to teach" has no analogue in the debate over baptism. Paul Yanosy is saying, I think, "Here is another stark statement, right after the verses about women not teaching, but you don't take THIS one literally. Why one and not the other?"
Perhaps you'll agree that we have to be careful about freighting too much upon prima facie readings. Personally, I give prima facie readings great due in interpreting Scripture, but the prima facie reading itself is not Scripture. Giving it great due is not the same as accepting it as the final word in each instance of reading Scripture.
Davy, may I ask you two direct questions?
1. How do you interpret "she will be saved by childbearing..."?
2. How do you interpet James 2:24, "A person is justified by works and not by faith alone"?
I will pay close attention to your method of handling these texts, looking to see if the method you employ can be used in making sense of the 1 Tim 2:11-14 passage.
Davy, Those are good
Tue, 06/20/2006 - 19:33 — Paul (not verified)Davy,
Those are good questions. Glenn is right -- the "very next verse" reference was a loose end from a previous edit that should have been caught. My mistake. It is in 1 Timothy 2:15 that Paul writes "But women will be saved through childbearing -- if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (NIV) The point I was trying to make was that Duncan also interprets Scripture in view of Scripture, using as an example a verse that follows closely on those that are the crux of the discussion. If the clear meaning is his touchstone, then he must apply this consistently to the following verses as well -- where the clear meaning appears that women must have children to be saved. The moment he says "that cannot be what Paul means here because we know from Paul and the broader witness of Scripture that salvation is by grace through faith, thus Paul must be saying something else here" he is engaging in the same "gymnastics" he condemns in others. Those who hold a more egalitarian interpretation (Stott, Fee, et al.) are Biblical scholars of the first rate as well, and they look at 1 Timothy 2:11-14 in view of Paul (e.g., Galatians 3:28) and the practice of the early church (e.g., Acts 18:26 shows Priscilla (listed before her husband Aquilla) teaching Apollos -- and they were close associates of Paul), and ask the question of whether we are really understanding what Paul is getting at here in 1 Timothy -- because our "clear meaning" interpretation seems to run against the current of Scripture. They might even point to the casualness with which Paul references Phoebe as evidence that we might not be understanding what Paul was really getting at in 1 Timothy -- it would seem if here was an exception to his general rule, he might explain why... unless there was no such general rule, and he is getting at something else in 1 Timothy. It is always fair to ask the question of what Paul meant and what his audience would have heard. I am not saying Duncan needs to agree with the egalitarian interpetation - but to say they interpret in bad faith and thereby undermine the authority of Scripture -- that the question itself is impermissible--is just not credible.
As to your other point -- that complementarianism is not culturally conditioned if it is pre-fall design -- this also turns on interpretation. First, was it pre-fall design? Does Genesis pre-fall teach complementarianism, or have we just read it through that lense (through the lense of our arguably erroneous understanding of 1 Timothy) for so long that we do not even notice it is a lense (think the view of grace before Luther, or the push of the anabaptist movement for "believer baptism", or whether Genesis 1 teaches literal six day creation)? (e.g., the same word for "helper" in the creation passage is used of God as our "helper" throughout the OT -- implying it is not an inferior position.) It's a fair question. The answer may be "no lense, this is what it says" -- but the question is not out of bounds, and to answer the question takes work. Second, even if it was pre-fall design (which is an open question between the camps) does the Gospel (e.g., Galatians 3:28 neither "male nor female" in Christ) trump this? Third, what do we even mean by "complementarian" and "egalitarian"? If one holds the day over the other with respect to 1 Timothy, what follows?
I know I am raising more questions than giving answers -- in short, I don't know which is a more correct interpretation of the underlying texts (this is certainly not so for all texts, but I think it is here). I would point you to some of the books and authors mentioned earlier in this chain who are more engaged on this if you want to dig deeper. But I believe Duncan et al.'s position -- that any variance from a complementarian position breaches the authority of Scripture -- is untenable. This strikes me as an issue much closer to disagreements over baptism than the authors care to allow.
Is that helpful?
Thanks,
Paul