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Diane Poythress Responds to Matt Brown's "Renewing Ecclesiology"

Matt Brown spoke at the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008 on the theme of "Renewing Ecclesiology." Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Matt's talk by clicking (here).

This is the fourth week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, and to read the essays from the previous three weeks, click (here).

During the week of October 6-9 we will host essays from Leo Schuster, Rick Lints, Diane Poythress and Russell Moore  in response to Matt Brown's talk. On Friday, October 10,  Matt will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Poythress_diane_pic Diane Poythress earned her PhD in Reformation History and Theology from Westminster Theological Seminary.

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The title of Mr. Brown's paper suggests that his topic is the missionary call of the Church. That topic needs stronger exposition. Rather than appealing to the Nicene Creed, he could have turned to the traditional passages--Isaiah 6; Matthew 10; 28; Acts 1:8; 2:38-39--or to the purpose for Israel and the Church found in I Peter 2:5,9. In fact, his main subject is denominationalism. This, too, could have been presented more persuasively by appealing to Scripture rather than a creed. He could have quoted more of John 17; I Cor. 1; 3; 12; Gal. 5; Eph. 4; James 2-5; or the injunction to love the brethren, our neighbors, our enemies.

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Rick Lints Responds to Matt Brown's "Renewing Ecclesiology"

Matt Brown spoke at the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008 on the theme of "Renewing Ecclesiology." Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Matt's talk by clicking (here).

This is the fourth week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, and to read the essays from the previous three weeks, click (here).

During the week of October 6-9 we will host essays from Leo Schuster, Rick Lints, Diane Poythress and Russell Moore  in response to Matt Brown's talk. On Friday, October 10,  Matt will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Lints_rick_pic_from_gcts_web Richard Lints is the Andrew Mutch Distinguished Professor of Theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He is an ordained PCA teaching elder and has served as the church planting pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Concord, MA. He is the author or editor of The Fabric of Theology, The Westminster Dictionary of Philosophy for Theology, Personal Identity in Theological Perspective and the forthcoming, Radical Ironies: Religion and the Rise of Postmodernity in the 1960s.

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Our very best pastoral theologians in the PCA are our church planters and RUF folk. The need to do serious theological contextualization on campuses and in cities has produced a generation of young missionary theologians of the first rank. Matt’s essay gives us ample evidence of this emerging reality. A generation ago, the church growth impulse in the PCA overshadowed the pastor-as-theologian vocation which had previously been such a rich inheritance for us in the Reformed Tradition. I am grateful to the Denominational Renewal folk for celebrating the intertwining of theology and practice. Greg’s language of “ethos”, Jeremy’s use of “theological vision” and Matt’s use of “missional ecclesiology” all manifest this deep concern to appropriate the gospel as a living conversation in the ordinary habits of the church.

 Read more

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Leo Schuster Responds to Matt Brown's "Renewing Ecclesiology"

Matt Brown spoke at the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008 on the theme of "Renewing Ecclesiology." Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Matt's talk by clicking (here).

This is the fourth week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, and to read the essays from the previous three weeks, click (here).

During the week of October 6-9 we will host essays from Leo Schuster, Rick Lints, Diane Poythress and Russell Moore  in response to Matt Brown's talk. On Friday, October 10,  Matt will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Schuster_leo_pic Leo Schuster is the pastor of Christ the King Presbyterian Church in Houston.

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Big thanks to Glenn for inviting me to be part of this discussion and for giving me the pleasure of responding to Matt Brown’s very insightful talk.

 

Let me highlight a few in particular of the many items I appreciated:

 

We do indeed have much to celebrate within our reformed heritage and the PCA.

Reflecting specifically about the PCA, I’m especially grateful for its church planting thrust, for RUF (who’s philosophy of ministry is inherently reformed, missional and ecclesial), and for MTW and the leadership of our current moderator.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that viewing our ecclesiology through a missional lens is extremely constructive and vital in promoting health within the PCA and avoiding destructive tendencies, such as ecclesiological nostalgia and ecclesiological nihilism.

 

I appreciate the use of Nicene categories (apostolic, catholic, holy and one) to help us recover important biblical dynamics of the church in mission.

 

I’m challenged by Matt’s admonition that we should cultivate sorrow in our hearts for the divided state of the church and take steps to extend ourselves in mission across denominational lines. Amen!

 

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Bill Boyd Responds to Kidd, Ryken, et. al.

At the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008, Bill Boyd gave a talk entitled, "Renewing Worship."   Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Bill's talk by clicking (here).

This is the third week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 29-October 2 we will host essays from Reggie Kidd, Philip Ryken, Carl Ellis and John Muether  in response to Bill Boyd's talk. Today,  October 3,  Bill responds to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Boyd_bill_pic

Bill Boyd serves as founding pastor of All Saints Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Austin, TX. Prior to planting All Saints, Bill served with Reformed University Fellowship at The University of Texas at Austin for eight years.  Martha is Bill's better half, and William, August and Betsy (pictured) keep life hopping.

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It is a true privilege to have men such as Philip Ryken, Reggie Kidd, Carl Ellis and John Muether take the time to listen and respond to one's thoughts on worship.  Further, when a "critical" respondent sets a tone of: "there is so much to appreciate that I almost wish I had been cast as a "simpatico" rather than a "critical" respondent," you sense that a conversation conducive to learning is at hand.  And such has truly been the case for me.

I particularly appreciate the concern that Philip and Reggie have expressed, namely that in emphasizing "the banquet hall" we not lose sight of the biblical-historical heritage of gospel proclamation (reading and preaching of Gods Word).  Two things come to mind immediately:
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John Muether Responds to Bill Boyd's "Renewing Worship"

At the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008, Bill Boyd gave a talk entitled, "Renewing Worship."   Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Bill's talk by clicking (here).

This is the third week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 29-October 2 we will host essays from Reggie Kidd, Philip Ryken, Carl Ellis and John Muether  in response to Bill Boyd's talk. On Friday, October 3,  Bill will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Muether_john_pic When he is not co-editing the Nicotine Theological Journal, John Muether is the Library Director and Professor of Church History at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando. He is the Historian of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and he serves in that church as a ruling elder. His most recent books are Seeking a Better Country: 300 Years of American Presbyterianism (with D.G. Hart) and Cornelius Van Til: Reformed Apologist and Churchman. 

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Bill Boyd’s “Worship that Renews,” brings to mind a feature that the New Yorker regularly ran, exposing tortured and runaway rhetoric in journalism under the headline, “Hold that Metaphor!” The proliferation of food throughout Scripture is indeed food for thought, but how it shapes the nature of public worship (Boyd’s phrase is “gathered worship”) goes largely unexplored. If the Reformed have placed excessive emphasis on worship as a “lecture hall,” it is surely no cure to gorge ourselves at the banquet table.

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Carl F. Ellis, Jr. Responds to Bill Boyd's "Renewing Worship"

At the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008, Bill Boyd gave a talk entitled, "Renewing Worship."   Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Bill's talk by clicking (here).

This is the third week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 29-October 2 we will host essays from Reggie Kidd, Philip Ryken, Carl Ellis and John Muether  in response to Bill Boyd's talk. On Friday, October 3,  Bill will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Carl F. Ellis, Jr. is president of Project Joseph — a ministry that seeks to equip the church for today’s challenges. He is also serves as Dean of Intercultural Studies at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, PA. and is founding faculty of AtlSem — a theological education program for ministry leaders in Chattanooga, TN. He has authored several books and articles.

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Soon after moving back to Chattanooga, TN in 1989, I was driving on Amnicola Highway listening to Jazz-88. Lyle Lovett was singing about a worship service to be followed by a fellowship dinner.1 As the story unfolded, instead of closing his sermon at the appropriate time, the preacher continued to preach:

“I have one more thing to say.

Children before you think about leaving,

You better think about the Judgment Day.”

The scrumptious dinner aromas must have been wafting throughout the church and distracting the congregation. But the preacher continued:

“You-all better pay attention

Or I might decide to preach all day....”

Eventually: 

“Every one was gettin’ so hungry.

Old ones started feeling ill.

Weak ones started passin’ out.

Young ones, they could not sit still.”

It seemed the preacher would go on for ever. But, the story teller, having asked the Lord’s forgiveness in advance, got the choir to interrupt by singing: 

“To the Lord let praises be.

It’s time for dinner now let’s go eat.

We’ve got some beans and some good corn bread.

Now listen to what the preacher said.”

This memorable musical story was amusing indeed. However, reading the transcript of Bill Boyd’s talk, “Renewing Worship,” made me realize that Lyle Lovett had more than an amusing point to make. He was in fact singing about “Moving from the Lecture Hall to the Banquet Hall.” Read more

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Philip Ryken Responds to Bill Boyd's "Renewing Worship"

At the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008, Bill Boyd gave a talk entitled, "Renewing Worship."   Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Bill's talk by clicking (here).

This is the third week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 29-October 2 we will host essays from Reggie Kidd, Philip Ryken, Carl Ellis and John Muether  in response to Bill Boyd's talk. On Friday, October 3,  Bill will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Ryken_philip Philip Ryken is the senior minister of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. He serves on the boards of Wheaton College, Westminster Theological Seminary and is a council member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.  Dr. Ryken has written many books, including City on a Hill: Reclaiming the Biblical Pattern of the Church in the 21st Century.

 

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There is so much to appreciate in Bill Boyd’s talk on “Worship that Renews” that I could almost wish I had been cast as a “simpatico” rather than a “critical” respondent.

 My sympathies will always lie with anyone who commends God-centered worship. I also resonate with seeing respect for the worship traditions of the historic church as a matter of obedience to the Fifth Commandment, although I would add that such respect is one very good way to practice the communion of the saints—an oft-neglected and badly-needed doctrine in the PCA today. No argument from me (or from Calvin, for that matter) on the frequent celebration of the Lord’s Supper, either. Read more

Glenn Lucke's picture

Reggie Kidd Responds to Bill Boyd's "Renewing Worship"

At the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference in February of 2008, Bill Boyd gave a talk entitled, "Renewing Worship."   Because of a contract with a publisher the transcript is not available. However,  you may listen to the audio of Bill's talk by clicking (here).

This is the third week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 29-October 2 we will host essays from Reggie Kidd, Phil Ryken, Carl Ellis and John Muether  in response to Bill Boyd's talk. On Friday, October 3,  Bill will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Bill's  talk and/or the response essays.

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Kidd_reggie_pic Reggie Kidd is a Professor of New Testament at RTS/Orlando. He is also on the faculty of the Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies. Starting in January 2009 Reggie will serve as a Contributing Editor, Worship Leader Magazine. He is the author of With One Voice, a well-received work on the theology of song in worship.

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Bill Boyd’s talk invites comment on a number of things, but I will confine myself to two points of particular simpatinicity:

 

The Meal:

 

Bravo for the stress on the Table. I appreciate Bill’s telling the “story” of the meal in Scripture. At critical points in redemptive-history, the Table marked a climax of sorts, e.g., when the elders dined in God’s presence on Mt. Sinai (Exod. 24). Moreover, the Bible promises that the culmination of redemption’s story will be a wedding feast (Rev. 19:1-10; 22:14-17). The Table makes the gospel a matter of “show and tell”; it portrays the God who speaks and acts. The Table powerfully weds head and heart. Moreover, I appreciate that what Bill is talking about is the wedding of Table and the Word, not a reactionary elevation of Table over Word.

 

Let the Word be read! Let the sermon explain the text! Let the Table preach the text again! Then let our lives preach it one more time!

 

A point perhaps he could have made: greater frequency of Communion is not the only way to guard against Gnosticism. Historically, Reformers voiced two biblically derived concerns. First, that people be permitted to come, but second that they be prepared to do so. Godly reformed leaders disagreed over which concern was more important. Calvin lobbied for weekly Communion; his elders would not permit it. To his credit, he did not cut and run. The conversation has been a constant among us.

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Jeremy Jones Responds to Frame, Lucas, et. al.

In February 2008, Jeremy Jones  gave the second talk, "Renewing Theology,"  at the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference.  The transcript is not available due to a publishing contract, but you may listen to the audio of Jeremy's talk by clicking (here).

This is the second week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 22-25 we will host essays from John Frame, Sean Michael Lucas, Howard Brown, and Michael Walker in response to Jeremy Jones' talk. Today, September 26,  Jeremy responds to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Jeremy's  talk and/or the response essay.

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Jones_jeremy_pic Jeremy Jones is an associate pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Memphis. He was the RUF campus minister at Southern Mississippi and then Emory.

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Thanks to Glenn for hosting and all the other participants for responding; it’s been encouraging to see this discussion take place.

I want to do two things in this response: give some context for the original Denominational Renewal talks that may assist everyone in understanding them better. And respond to a couple of the issues raised this week during the discussion of my presentation.

All of the talks we’re interacting with via Common Grounds were first given at a conference held last spring in St. Louis. The “Conversation on Denominational Renewal” started with an opening introduction given by Joe Novenson (based on a brief talk given by Jeff White at Covenant Seminary earlier that day). This intro set the table and tone for the conference and made clear our purpose: to outline a theological vision for the future of the PCA. Our explicit intention was not to organize as some political action group, nor did we wish to wade into current denominational “hot button” debates (FV/NPP, etc) and argue for one side rather than another. In our understanding, the more specific doctrinal debates within the PCA are often the result of conflicting theological visions that exist in our church. Until we can identify, discuss, and debate these alternative visions, the different factions in the PCA will keep talking past each other.

We wanted to start a conversation at this deeper level. Read more

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Michael Walker Responds to Jeremy Jones' "Renewing Theology"

In February 2008, Jeremy Jones  gave the second talk, "Renewing Theology,"  at the Denominational Renewal (DR) conference.  The transcript is not available due to a publishing contract, but you may listen to the audio of Jeremy's talk by clicking (here).

This is the second week of a five week forum scrutinizing the five talks given at DR. For more on the structure of the five week forum at CGO on this conference, click (here).

During the week of September 22-25 we will host essays from John Frame, Sean Michael Lucas, Howard Brown, and Michael Walker in response to Jeremy Jones' talk. On Friday, September 26,  Jeremy will respond to his respondents.

We welcome discussion that is both robust and gracious. I [Glenn] will moderate all comments and those comments that exemplify graciousness and love for one's brothers and sisters will be approved. First and last name, and one's current, valid email address are required for comments. Also, please focus on Jeremy's  talk and/or the response essay.

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Walker_michael_pic Michael R. Walker is the Theologian-in-Residence at Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas, TX.  He is the former Executive Director of Presbyterians For Renewal and a Ph.D. Candidate in History of Doctrine at Princeton Theological Seminary.  The title of his dissertation is John Calvin's Pursuit of Happiness. His blog is at www.regulafidei.com.

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As an outsider to the Presbyterian Church in America, it is a privilege to participate in this forum by responding to Jeremy Jones' paper on "Renewing Theology" in the PCA.  My own ecclesial context, namely the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), is remarkably different from that of the PCA, in ways that do not require much description for those interested in the present conversation.  Suffice it to say that the PC(USA) is wrestling with all of the same root issues of ecclesial unity touched upon in Jones' paper, though it's much less clear in the PC(USA) that everyone is wrestling in the same arena. The doctrinal ambiguity of the PC(USA) and the rigorous confessional particularity of the PCA have played off of one another to such a degree that those who wish to combine genuine confessional commitments with an openness to further reform find themselves at odds with entrenched forces in their own denomination, whether that is the PCA or the PC(USA).  Unfortunately, this circumstance will not be overcome easily or quickly.

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